Kathi Balasek – Personal Widowhood Experience

Kathi Balasek - Personal Widowhood Experience

Kathi Balasek is an educator, the founder of Grief Smart Advisor, and a widow.

Kathi shares her personal journey with widowhood, what it is like to experience grief, steps you can take to help with grief, what to say to a widow, how to help a widow, and resources for widows.

Whether you are a new widow, have a friend who is a widow, or want to learn more about widowhood, Kathi has wisdom to share with you.

I appreciated Kathi opening up about her own widowhood experience, her message for widows, and the resources she talked about available to widows.

Helpful Links:


[00:00:00] Elliott: Kathy, welcome to the podcast. Thanks for being here.

[00:00:03] Kathi: Thanks, Elliott. It’s a privileged and honor to share this time with you.

[00:00:08] Elliott: Great. Why don’t we kick things off with a brief introduction about yourself, just to give people a feel for what you do and who you are.

[00:00:16] Kathi: Okay. Um, in a nutshell, let’s see I am a small town kid, grew up in Montana and, uh, got married and moved to California.

Um, I have that mentality, that community mentality that has just spread through my life. Um, my profession, I’m an educator. I’ve been teaching for 25 years and wow. I teach at California State University, uh, where I train brand new teachers. I’ve always had a love for learning, teaching and engaging, and so I also.

Um, started a business and where I speak and I train financial advisors to become fluent in grief communications so that they can help their clients. Um, specifically ones who are going through widowhood. Um, let’s see. I have five children. I have, uh, three grandchildren. Let’s see. I love sports. Every sport mentioned.

I grew up with a basketball in my hand um, that is a love of mine. I golf, I’m social. I’m like your worst nightmare on an airplane because I love people and I want to get to know you. So that’s sort of me in a nutshell.

[00:01:54] Elliott: Wonderful. I’m curious, as someone who’s been a lifelong educator, What made you wanna start this business?

[00:02:02] Kathi: It was my personal experience, um, in widowhood, so I’ll give you a little backstory of that. Um, I was, I lost my husband, uh, in my thirties and raising five children. And he came home one day and he had a, he had brain cancer, perfectly healthy person. Um, we had it all, We had great careers. He was an airline pilot for FedEx.

Um, he was the most beautiful spirit I’ve ever encountered on this earth. And I found myself going, from soccer mom. To caregiver, to widow, um, before I was 40. And so that really created a path in my life that I knew at some point I wanted to make a difference. And so I think after I raise my kids, I’m an empty nest.

Hallelujah. I got five kids through college. .

[00:03:30] Elliott: That’s a feat in and of itself,

[00:03:33] Kathi: and um, I always knew I wanted to do something for widows. , something that would help people understand grievers. And so this has been a decade long. Mission and when Covid hit, I just knew that I could take the skills of education, tease out those communication skills, engagement skills, questioning strategies, all of those things.

That is the art of engagement. And I could help a group of people. That could truly help widows. , because what I’ve learned in my journey is widowhood is financial. Every decision that I made since the death even before in caregiving and everything , um, had a financial component. And even though it’s been over a decade since, uh, John died, there’s still so many decisions women have to.

And you have to really put the oxygen mask on yourself and you need some financial professionals, ones that can connect and be caring and compassionate. So there was my in. I just thought I knew I could serve this group of people and change the course of how widows are perceived and how grievers are perceived and what truly is supportive and unsupportive.

[00:05:10] Elliott: I, I wanna talk more about the business, but I also want to go back to your story a little bit more and dive into what’s it like to be a widow. What did you experience, What did you learn along the way when John died, and what lessons have you taken with that and to what you do now? And just how has that changed you?

If you don’t mind expanding on.

[00:05:33] Kathi: No I love sharing about my life to people because grief is awful. Widowhood is awful. I.

The end of a life isn’t the end of a relationship, and John is very much still a part of our lives, A part of our conversations, we talk about it with our children, but for widows, it is a timeframe that is a complete blur. You’re just getting through some days, day by day, hour by hour, moment by moment and just waiting for What next do I have to deal with?

And, your brain doesn’t work the same. We have that grief, fog, overwhelm. I mean, the things I did and the forgetfulness. I think I probably had AAA on the speed dial because I consistently locked my keys in my car, and as a widow we think, Gosh, I could have done these things prior.

Why can’t I do what’s normal in my daily schedule that I used to do while you’re not sleeping? You’re crying, you’re sad, you’re susceptible to all of these triggers. How can I be fine one day and then stand in line at the grocery store and I completely lose it? And those first couple years, the barrage of paperwork tasks, managing the household, making decisions if there’s children involved.

Um, it’s like a big old game of dodge ball where you’re laying in the middle of the court and , you never get out of the game. Yeah, and for widows, any widow listening, I just hope that you will slow down and create some space to grieve because there’s so many other tasks. The decisions don’t really need to be made the first year there.

It’s more of just getting organized, um, having great people to help you delegating, but truly taking care of yourself. I mean, the physical side of grief is, I don’t know how you can do anything if you don’t take care of yourself first. And getting good sleep is difficult. I’m a fan of exercise and nutrition and that’s your fuel and you’re running on empty and you’re running on empty for several years.

Get out in the sunshine, Um, your social circle changes. Everything has been flipped upside down. It’s like throwing a 10,000 piece puzzle out in the street, and you’d love to pick up the pieces and put ’em together, but you don’t even have a picture on the box. You don’t know what your future is.

 And moment by moment, day by day. I’m

[00:09:20] Elliott: curious to hear more about specific things that you did. To help you through that process. Like, you talked about exercise and nutrition and I feel like that’s a very easy thing to say, but it’s also something that’s very hard to do for someone who is in the midst of grief.

Are there certain things you did to help with that and help, I don’t wanna say motivate yourself, but help you to actually do it? Or were there people around you who helped you with that? Or talking about who was around you during that time?

[00:09:53] Kathi: Excellent. So I have a family that are just complete rock stars, just to say they, they just swooped in and helped me with every task.

My parents, um, basically moved in with me for six months and helped me with the kids. And I had a wonderful community that was supportive, but specifically, when I say exercise or nutri, Go on a walk, even if it’s 10 steps out your door, take a U-turn and come back in. . Okay. We don’t have to go feel the burn, Just get out in nature and go for a walk.

In the cold weather, I’ve become one of those mall walkers, , because I just needed to get out and I’m. I’m a proponent of grief support, grief counseling, grief psychology. Any groups. As hard as it is to make that first step, it’ll be one of the best steps you can take. Counseling, these people are brilliant.

They understand grief, they understand different things that your children might be going through at different ages. I tried to get my children to go to counseling. Some wouldn’t. . So I ended up going to the counselor to learn about how I could help a different age of child, some kids need, are very, Isolated. Some are very disruptive. Who needs a time in, who needs a timeout? What’s their love language? All of those things I would’ve never known, yeah. And so counseling, taking care of yourself, the social side is really difficult because people.

Don’t know how to show up. They don’t know how, what to say, and, they mean well. They’re there to help, but they don’t know. One thing that really helped me is, um, some advice that I got from another widow was to keep a notebook, keep it by the phone. Um, Write down maybe anything that you need done so when somebody calls, it might not be you answering the phone, but somebody else can delegate.

I glad Wonder, because you have all of these, we love to brainstorm if it’s on our terms, but in widowhood your brainstorm is times a thousand, and so that is really helpful. And as hard as it is, tell people what you need. We’re not trained to do that. . And in fact, sometimes when, uh, you say what you need, culturally, that’s just not okay.

That’s too self-centered. I need space today. I need somebody to pick up a kid. I need a neighbor to come over and hang out with my kids so I can run a kid to practice and check in with the coach. All of these things you have to learn. I need it’s so huge and yet as a widow, and I wish I would’ve done it more.

[00:13:47] Elliott: Do you have advice for people? Because that is hard, right? We’re taught not to. Impose on people. And I use air quotes there because it’s not really an imposition. People often say, Let me know if you need anything or, call if you need help, which isn’t a great offer. And we can talk about language and stuff that people can use, but I’m curious if you had advice or guidance for people to overcome that step of actually asking for that

[00:14:13] Kathi: help.

, I think the first part is to recognize that being uncomfortable with a grief, Is completely normal. It just is, , I’m that friend that makes people awkward because they know my life. , and they’re like, I don’t want that to happen to me. And so we get in our mind and it’s sad and so we’re afraid to say something.

That’s not supportive. We don’t know how to say it. We don’t wanna appear awkward or not eloquent, and so we hesitate. And in life you gotta go all in. And if this isn’t the opportunity to go all in with someone, I don’t know what is. And so call the person. It’s okay if you’re awkward. Nobody cares. Okay.

You called, you acknowledged their loss, You said their name. I love hearing John’s name. You set a memory you offer to help. Hey, I’m running to Costco. I’m running to the grocery store. I wanna buy some fresh fruit. What do you need? I wanna drop it off. Um, hey, I’m running to the post office. You know What packages do you need or how about some stamps or anything Practical, logistical.

Is huge, and it’s okay if you don’t know what to say. Say, You know what? I don’t know what to say. I’m, I just wanna be here for you. I wanna share and be a listener, and maybe I have some resources that you might. Do you need somebody to mow your lawn? Do you have a lawn service? Or I have a great house cleaner that I trust.

Could I send them over? I mean, as a widow, you just, it’s a safety issue, okay? I was very afraid to have a stranger come to my. I became a big fat fier and, um, just pretended that my husband was there when they showed up because you don’t want people to know you’re there alone. And so if a neighbor can offer a trusted resource that is wonder, a community referral.

Um, Anything that could ease, somebody came and took my dogs and washed them. That was so much, like, I’m gonna wash my dog, I remember going to the vet and they’re like do you brush your dog’s teeth? And I’m like, I don’t even brush my own teeth some days.

And so first things, call the person. They might not answer the phone. They probably won’t, but leave a message. They can hear your tone. They can hear your voice. They can hear your care. Send a note. Send a personal note. Okay? You can put in words that might be awkward verbally. Okay? Um, a condolence card, you know that condolence sympathy card aisle is daunting.

Don’t go there. Just get a blank card and write. Write your words. Okay. Um, and we wanna say things that support and acknowledge people’s grief. And even though you can’t understand what widowhood might be, try to connect with the emotion. If you’re talking about things and they. They have a long list.

Maybe they feel overwhelmed, maybe they feel unsafe. Maybe they feel, um, fearful, maybe they’re tired. These are the conversations and the emotions that connect us all and that’s the form of empathy that people are confused with. People think that empathy, you have to be in their shoes. No, you have to name the emotion and share it, because that’s what we all can relate to.

. So those are some tips. Call, write, knock on the door. Practical things are very helpful and I’m telling you when you can do that. You not only are a help and a support, but you just fed something in you that is magic and it becomes easier and easier. All it takes is practice and a few reps, and unfortunately the reps involve more grievers, and so that’s rough.

, but it’s a learn skill. You must practice. And just show up for people. It’s simple, it’s fundamental. Yeah.

[00:19:37] Elliott: I wanna draw some things you said, cuz you said a lot of great tips in there. But I think things that when I talk with other folks that they’re often afraid of is one, using the person’s name.

I think a lot of people shy away from that. And so I just, I wanna highlight that, that is something that you should use and acknowledging again, that it’s gonna be awkward the first few times that you do it. And that’s, , right? , everybody feels awkward in this scenario, and like you said, staying with the emotion and acknowledging the emotion, then a specific thing can be really helpful.

Because if you show up in that way without emotion, they’re gonna get it and they’re gonna understand.

[00:20:17] Kathi: , It’s so true, and I think one of the things that I help people with is how to stay in the MO in emotion. But not make it about you. When I meet people and we talk, I don’t share my grief story, I let it be about that person, okay? Nobody likes a one upper, okay? Nobody does. You don’t make friends that way when a griever is sharing something about themselves. Acknowledge it. Don’t justify it, don’t compare it. And there’s some categories of unsupported ways that our society, um, has statements about grief.

Like it’s in God’s plan, he’s in a better place. That’s just basically, Justifying it and the message is, what it’s saying is, I don’t wanna talk about it anymore, okay? , this is your grief. I’m telling you. It’s in God’s plan, so let’s move on. It’s very unsupportive and I get this question asked a lot.

But my friend and I, we both share the same faith in, in grief. And why can’t I say that? I’m not saying you can’t. I’m just saying it’s unsupportive. And this is why many people who grieve question their faith, it’s a time that you questioning everything. So coming in with those types of statements doesn’t always land.

However well meaning, I mean, we’ve jumped off that diving board and we thought it was epic and we belly flopped. Okay? It happens to us. Um, some other things that people kind of swoop in with is they compare too often. That reminds me of when my dad died, or that reminds me when this well, I’m sure it does.

And part of showing up for people is to really controlling the autobiography we’re writing in our head. Okay. Cause it’s not about us. Yeah. It’s about them. Yeah.

[00:22:55] Elliott: Said. I find that happens a lot with people that I talk with, that who are widows or a lot of people try to make those comparisons or something and it’s just not

[00:23:04] Kathi: helpful.

No, I mean, and you gotta get back out there. Maybe you should get a pet, maybe you should do this, and all of these, you shoulds or. If only, if only he would’ve made it through the holidays. If only, all of these things. It’s just, if only your kids could have known him longer.

Um, another, it’s just more justifications. and let’s cheer it away. Okay? Yeah. This can’t be fixed. You can’t cheer it up. I can’t get right out there. I mean, people had me, I was in my thirties, they had me dating, married, moving to another state and finding a new father for my kids and . I don’t take a fence for it.

I’m all about. Solutions not problems. And this is why the language is so important, not only to who I work with, but to the world. I wanna teach the world how to be fluent in grief literacy because we can do it and we can truly show up for others.

[00:24:29] Elliott: Yeah, I love that. Fluent and grief Litera. I feel like that it’s like, that needs to be a course somewhere.

[00:24:38] Kathi: I’m working on it. Elliot good. .

[00:24:42] Elliott: I wanna go back for a moment. Um, to, you mentioned that you saw a therapist for your kids to figure out how to get them into therapy and different kids needed different types of therapy or behaved in certain ways. I’m curious. Multi-question here, but like how did you find your therapist back then?

What sort of resources do you see people use today and how do they find them? Because I think it is challenging sometimes to one, make the time or the energy to go out and find those resources. And also sometimes those resources aren’t easy to find. If you don’t have a friend, for example, who says, Here’s this excellent therapist who’s helped me through all these things that may not fall into someone’s.

[00:25:28] Kathi: Agreed. Agreed. So I live in a town that’s just very much a word of mouth culture, and women very much relate and talk about, their best recommendations. I mean, we don’t Google the best restaurant or the best place to get our haircut. It’s a word of mouth, okay? . And so if you are a friend or a neighbor, Start really getting some grief resources, who’s great at certain things in your community.

That’s one way to help. But if you’re going, cold Turkey and you don’t know, Modern Widows Club, um, it’s modern widows club.org. In my opinion, that is the best resource for a brand new widow. Um, I’m on their advisory board. I’ve spoke at conferences with their, um, their founder. They are the. They are the people who are researching widowhood.

They have support groups all across the world, and so they can find one near you or near your hometown. You can get dialed in with other widows. They have resources for counseling, resources for getting, changes in your future resources for finances. If you wanted to go back to school if you wanted.

Do a new career. It’s unbelievable what that Organiz organization does, and it’s a non-profit. All of these people are donating their time and expertise. Um, that’s a great place to start. Another great foundation is Wings of Widow. And I’ve, uh, talked with people who work with them and they partner widows with professionals that they might need or that they might not be able to afford.

Um, There are an abundance of foundations that support widows, specifically women. Widowhood is a, is for men and women. It’s a gender neutral term, but the reality is women outnumbered men four to one. And, uh, there’s a lot of. A lot of setbacks for women in our world and financial, uh, issues with women.

So many of these really focus on, um, a grieving woman moving forward. Um, support groups in your area, just even your local chamber of commerce will have support groups. There’s church groups, there’s, I can’t say you’re gonna hit it out of the park the first time looking for a counselor, yeah. And we wanna find a good fit. Try it. If it’s not a good fit, stop trying to put your size nine foot in a size six shoe and get out. There’s other great people and keep asking people. And one of the things that. People can really do or professionals could really do that work with widows is they could have a curated list of who they could recommend because you don’t know where to turn, you don’t know who to call, and it’s like a huge scavenger hunt.

Yeah. So those are some key places that I would start. Great. I

[00:29:23] Elliott: appreciate that. The modern widows club wings for widows, community support groups, asking friends, that sort of thing. Good. Um, I’m curious if there are. Common mistakes widows make in that first year or two when we talk about widows fog or brain fog and just everything that you have to do.

There’s a ton from just the paperwork to life decisions to you name it. I’m curious if there’s common things you’ve seen where people have taken a step maybe too soon or thought they were ready and maybe regretted it later.

[00:30:02] Kathi: Um, there are common missteps. And another great researcher is Kathleen Real.

And, uh, I highly recommend her book, um, for widows. And she identified, um, common mistakes. Um, and I hear about it, I see it, and it’s definitely an emotion that I felt You wanna. You wanna get out of the house. You wanna sell the house, okay? You, it’s just like, especially if they died in the house, which John did, and this memory, you wanna check this box, you wanna fresh start, okay?

All of those things, all those things are very normal. Unfortunately, it’s not the best decision. It’s not the best decision financially. You don’t know what you’re gonna feel like a year or. Then, um, and in grief, there’s either Stallers where you don’t do anything, or there’s, I’m checking off the box, house, sold, new car, whatever.

Um, when you get, if you get life insurance, if you get money from social Security, if you get all of those things, one of the mistakes is. I just don’t want this money. I wanna get rid of it. I wanna spend it. It represents a lot of sadness, grief, It also represents guilt and shame. I didn’t have an active role in the long term finances.

I trusted John, he was great at it. He loved to do that. He had a binder for everything. And it just is not my cup of. And so I didn’t know any financial terms. I didn’t know anything. I didn’t know where the money was. I didn’t know anything. And so I was embarrassed. I was embarrassed that I’ve been handed this death money.

I mean, it isn’t life insurance. It’s death insurance, let’s just call it what it is. . And I just wanted to get rid of it. I took my kids here, I spent this here. and then you found yourself one day going, Holy cow, I gotta get real with the money that is gonna support my family and me throughout my life.

That’s a big mistake. Um, early decisions, not asking for help to go places Buying a car for the first time in my life by myself. Okay. I mean, I got the most expensive car, I bought, the long term warranty, whatever, I didn’t know what cars were, I didn’t know what kind I wanted. He said the name of the color.

It was cashmere, and I’m like, sold, and so just really bad financial decisions. Um, a lot of widows that I’ve talked to and work with and in modern Widows Club they get into a relationship too quick. They’re like, Let’s just jump from one to the next and, um, My advice, my experience, my care for every person on this planet is to take your time, work on yourself, start deciding what you want in your life because you can make these decisions that just cause more problems down the road.

Um, divorce is a big thing and the amount of divorces out there, the amount of divorces on second marriage out there, the amount of divorces, the gray divorce of older women, and you can do this. It’s gonna be hard. There’s people to help, there’s professionals to help and. These decisions can really hurt you in the long run.

You really need a financial advisor. You need a great tax person, you need an estate attorney. Um, as awful as it is, you know you gotta put, you have to put your big girl pants on and do it yourself because no one else is gonna do it for you. And the sooner you can, that’s up to that. The sooner this is gonna happen for you.

And I am thankful. I’m thankful for the professionals that were in my life at this time, because I wouldn’t be talking about this if they weren’t. I don’t know where my life would’ve been.

[00:35:15] Elliott: Yeah. Having those teams in place are, I found so important in that particularly first year too, um, to make sure that everything gets done that needs to get done and helps take some things off a widow’s plate.

Allows them to make decisions as well too, about what comes next. . Yeah.

[00:35:38] Kathi: I look back and it’s a blur, but then when I really sit down and I say, Wow, look what I did in a month. Look what I did in three months and. A really effective help through grief is to start journal journaling.

Whether it’s writing in sentences, whether it’s brainstorming, whether it’s drawing. If you’re really quantifying this is where I’ve come from, this is what I got done it, it builds momentum. Yeah. And so many widows say, I’m just stuck. I just can’t, inch by inch, a tiny little step is the only way you can build momentum.

And so when you can journal, when you can celebrate and write your success, you start to build a pace. And you crave more, you crave better ways to take care of yourself, better professionals to work with, more ways to, to learn new things and become social in, in different settings that you hadn’t imagined.

And pretty soon your future starts to emerge and. You’re just putting it out there and things just show up. This is how the world works. Yeah. I don’t know whether it’s karma or whatever, nobody’s gonna be knocking on your door saying, Here, I’m here to help you move on with your life. And so inch by inch, it’s a cinch.

Okay. Little things. That’s the teacher in me. Okay. Yard by yard. It’s too hard, right? . And we widows get stuck and they don’t know where to go. Focus on past success. Focus on who you were before you met your spouse. Um, who’s that girl and don’t feel guilty for imagining a different future, even dreaming for a different future.

As sad as this is when John, he made it five years fighting brain cancer, and I wouldn’t trade that time for anything. But I did know the outcome. I knew the outcome and honesty. I did dream of a future and it’s hard to admit that, to dream of a future without him. But some days that’s the, you have to have hope.

And I knew where this was headed, so I had to gain some hope for myself and my kids. and I’ve had to release that guilt for feeling that way. And so new widows don’t feel guilty for imagining a future that doesn’t involve grief, pain, loss, crying, hiding in the closet with all my memories. Don’t feel guilty for that.

So I’m just like any widow out there, I’ve done all the things that I shouldn’t have. I’ve had pity parties on every corner, and at some point that cloak of grief doesn’t help you anymore, and it’s time to start shedding a layer, stepping forward and taking one step.

[00:39:23] Elliott: Yeah. I’m glad you said that, Kathy, to don’t feel guilty about that because I think a lot of people can resonate with that.

Yes. Um, I wanna shift gears a little bit and get to the question that I ask everybody at the end of my podcast. But before we get there, um, where, actually before we get to even that, is there anything we haven’t talked about today? I want to ask a little bit about the business and where people can find you, but is there anything we haven’t covered that you think is really

[00:39:53] Kathi: important?

I think one of the biggest things that is important is that,

A griever, you are not alone. Everything that you’re experiencing in grief, other people are experiencing it. You are not alone. And there are people who want to share your journey with you if you allow it, because grief can be extremely isolat. And that leads to a whole other set of problems.

And to know you’re not alone to know. There’s other grievers to know there’s a community of widows, really, that’s usually what got me up every day, and this, it’ll never go away, okay? You learn to walk alongside. Okay. That’s just the reality and What a gift that I get to bring John along with me, and I still talk to him all the time, and I’ve moved forward with my life and my relationship and, but that’s a part of my life and don’t ever let that go because it’s.

It’s added so much joy to my life, to my children, to my community, and you’re not

[00:41:39] Elliott: alone. Thank you for sharing. I think that’s a really important message that grief will come with you and that can also be a gift and that you’re not

[00:41:52] Kathi: alone. Absolutely. Absolutely.

[00:41:55] Elliott: Kathy, tell me, where can people find you?

Tell me a little bit more about the business and then we’ll get to my final question. Okay.

[00:42:03] Kathi: So you can, um, find me@kathybalasik.com. Got real creative on that, Elliot. Okay. ,

[00:42:09] Elliott: You might wanna spell that for some

[00:42:10] Kathi: people. It’s B as in boy, A L A S E K. Um, and my business, it’s called Grief Smart. , and that’s the space where you can learn how to best connect with grieving people, specifically widows.

And I’m gonna help you become grief fluent and build the confidence so that you can truly help widows. Because my mission is that the financial confidence and financial stability of widows really helps them move on with their. and financial professionals really can help do that. They’re a tool , and so that’s what I do.

Um, I offer trainings. I just got back from speaking in Austin to a group of advisors, and I have to tell you, having a second act as a woman, as a widow, I can’t wait to get up. I never dreamed I’d be doing this, but I can’t wait to get up in the morning to see who I can help lean in to become grief literate.

So that, that’s my biz .

[00:43:30] Elliott: Wonderful. Thank you. I’m so thankful for people like you who are serving this space because, Advisors are not good at this, um, on the whole, So thank you for what you do. I wanna wrap things up with one question that I ask everybody on my podcast, and that is, what is one act of kindness that has been transformational in your life?

[00:43:53] Kathi: Oh, Elliot, let me talk, Count the ways right to, to divide it into one. I think the biggest act of kindness in my life has been

the people who’ve shown up who really helped my children, whether it was the teacher, whether it was the coach. Whether it was somebody who just dropped by on the death anniversary or that somebody who wrote my son a note about their dad. I mean, recently, John was an airline pilot and my youngest son Jessie, he.

Graduated from college in the spring, and he is going into the Navy as a Navy pilot officer in January, and I, he got a note from a friend that’s a pilot telling him about his dad. Those are the things that keep his memory alive. and allow others who knew John to share with my children. That’s where it, it hits is with my children.

So those are the kindnesses that they transcend.

[00:45:37] Elliott: What a great gift. Thanks for sharing, Kathy. You’re welcome and thanks for being on the podcast today.

[00:45:42] Kathi: I so appreciate it. It has been a complete joy. Thanks, Elliot.